emilymalkieri: I'm sorry, are you telling me we've been running around with the Heart of the Obscure, which was originally introduced as a device that closes mist portals and has since been shoehorned into doing anything we want... except close this mist portal? This story's been throwing around mention of portals to the Realm of Torment like they're nothing: Isgarren can accidentally open up one in a rage, Dagda threatens to lock him in there, Lyhr literally travels there off-screen, but closing

funeralmuse: Back when they announced the mini expansion pack format, I recall you mentioning that you'd need to at least see them do 2 of them before you could really know whether or not it was a good idea (paraphrasing). We've just wrapped up the second one, so I'm wondering how you're feeling about the format in general at this stage. Thanks WP.

ClassG-m2i: Thank you so much for all the great years of content you’ve created. If I hadn’t come across such amazing Longview content, I wouldn’t have returned to Guild Wars a few years ago. However, I have since left the game and recently deleted my accounts because I don’t plan on going back. I’m not a big fan of the direction the company is taking with their releases, and the overall community hasn’t been as enjoyable as I had hoped.

That said, you have inspired me to get involved in the community, create builds, and help theorycraft to advance the support Specter in various game modes, including build guides and more. I genuinely appreciate the work you’ve done for this community, and I consider you one of the best content creators in this space.

I'm signing off permanently to go outside and enjoy the real world. Take care, @woodenpotatoes!

kairos1519: If I told you at the start of Janthir Wilds that the final boss of the expansion will be three random white mantle that we fight in Realm of Torment, you wouldn't believe me, you would think that I'm joking.

xuzhang9580: One of my comments disappeared so I'll repost it: I think Mabon's story in this expac is a diviation from his character, just like how Isgarren's character went down a weird path before they reconned it.

The idea is when Mabon saw Saevus alone in Bava Nisos, he thought of himself and his first encounter with Isgarren. Isgarren spared him and gifted him a new life, so he likewise spared the titan, thinking it would return to the mist and live a new life. The problem is these two situations are completely different. Mabon is a mursaat whose race had a developed society and culture, and he expressed regret for what he and his people had done. So when Isgarren chose to spare him, there is clear motivation in doing so—Mabon is capable of living a new life as an intelligent sentient being who is willing to repent and make amends, not to mention that Isgarren had the need for someone to work with him building the world spire.

Now what do we know about the titans? They're demons created from tormented souls. They are sentient as they can speak, but it's not like they have a society or a life or a complex personality (the souls from which they're made may have these). There is no indication that they're capable of complex emotions like regrets, or the possibility that they're capable of anything other than destruction. What did Mabon think Saevus would do should it return to the mist? If Anet was trying to suggest "Oh titans are people too", then it's the Nayos thing again; if they're not, then we came to the conclusion that Mabon is too softhearted and too merciful when he shouldn't be, and he is also indecisive enough to leave the problem fester for 200 years.

But that is not Mabon's character! He was written to be kind and gentle as a contrast to Isgarren, yes, but that doesn't make him a flat goody-two-shoes that's nice to everyone and everything. SotO established the concept of fractal research which has clear moral problems, and while Mabon admits the cost of the research, he plainly states that he thinks the research is justified. He lived through thousands of years and watched countless tragedies played out on Tyria, trusting Isgarren's judgement and staying clear of matters most of the times. It's not like he didn't understand long-term thinking or he didn't know resposibility, when things need to be done, he does them.

The Astral Ward and the Wizard's Court have been defending Tyria from Eparch for centries, what's the difference between killing Nayos demons and killing titans? If anything, killing a titan should be easier when it comes to moral because they're not natural creatures with a society or life. Anet tried justifying it with the idea that "Mabon's tired of senseless bloodshed", but killing a titan isn't even "senseless" like the seer-mursaat war, it would've been him protecting Tyria and persumably other worlds out there from a titan, a titan who would slaughter anyone alike, whether it's a maniac like Manikaz or innocents like Anthos and the new generation of gildless.

Isgarren, who had known Mabon for the longest time, describe his character as "brutal, but fair", and now Anet tells me that this person would spare a titan and keep the problem hidden for 200 years because of sentimentality? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

KotMatroskin: So here're my completely ridiculous theories, here we go:

1. Mabon is Menzies. Broken mirror catalogued in Bava Nisos is actually another mirror. Just like Balthazar used the mirror to pretend to be Lazarus, Menzies used a mirror to pretend to be Mabon's echo. He got the scepter, closed the gate. In a few weeks another gate will pop up some random place, he's gonna jump out of it waving the Scepter of Orr, yelling 'I'm baaaack!' (Anet will do a mid-160day patch to tease the next expansion). This will be on Janthir Gravis, which is just east of Bava Nisos. Also, Knut's wife could be there, because why not.

2. Logan is Menzies. Queen Jennah is Lyssa. So, thing is, Queen Jennah has been 'possessed' by Lyssa for a while now, allowing her to protect entire cities with a mesmer dome. Back in Destiny's Edge books, she wrote those very persuasive letters to Logan, in fact convincing him to leave Destiny's Edge, so Kralkatorrik would fly south and not be killed. Why is that? Because Balthazar wanted Kralk for himself, but was jailed at that point. (Btw I forget why he got jailed, need to brush up) Most of the time Jennah is herself, but sometimes Lyssa makes her do things. Logan straight up retired on Southsun cove, now suddenly is back, leading the pact? Naha. He's in fact Menzies. He's planning some shenanigans and using Ellen Kiel to god knows what ends.

3. Lyhr is Menzies. Which is why Lyhr wasn't there at the end. Lyhr went into the Foundry, bumped into Menzies, Menzies did a little bit of possession. (Or maybe he did that back during the cleanse Lyhr/open Wizard tower meta). In any case, Menzies-touched-Lyhr was the one who forged Tatyana/Ulrich/Judge into titans.

xuzhang9580: So hopefully now WP understands why I compared part of this patch to the trahearne ritural at the end of Orr XD In the first heart chamber instance, a solution to our problem was just thrown onto us without further explanation. This idea, "the mist gate is anchored to people so we need touchstones to release their souls from the realm of torment to close the gate", there's at least three things to pick at in this single line.

First, what does "being anchored" mean? Well we don't know, apparently being anchored is how the gate can remain open/closed. But then since Mabon said Saevus is anchored to the gate too, why would the releasing of three souls solve the problem? Don't we need to kill Saevus as well? But then Saevus is drawing magic from the gate to fortify itself, so we can't kill it until the gate is closed...? Also, if the gate can be anchored to people, you'd think the mursaats researching it for hundreds of years would've already learnt that, shouldn't we at least learn that information back in Mistburn Barrens?

Second, is "releasing torments souls from the realm of torment" an established thing? Like when we defeated Shiro and Vizier Khilbron in Nightfall in the realm of torment, are we "releasing their souls"? To where though? To the normal part of the Underworld? Well we don't know, maybe we just destroyed the souls? Back in Mistburn Barren we used the heart to destory Yagon's soul, so it's possible, but then where does the touchstones factor in?

Lastly there's the touchstones, and aside from it being a weird pace breaker in the middle of action, it isn't even well explained. OK we're using the touchstones to "unbind souls from the depths of the Mists", but how? I vaguely remember some lore about how the realm of torment is where souls touched by Abaddon's power and where tormented demons go, so why don't we use the heart to dispel the demons merged with them (the story journal said they were merged with demonic entities)? We've done so in the past with Eparch's demon so why not? Instead we invented the idea that the heart can somehow “channel the essence of touchstones" and release the souls. I really don't understand why they keep adding new functions to the heart as if it didn't already have enough for it to become a joke.

With this comment I also want to address the idea that "those who complain about the story are those who rushed it", I hope I've demonstrated that I'm complaining about the story not because I rushed it but the opposite. I've very open to the idea that I'm overthinking it, but to me mainline story should be well explained and cleanly executed. If I'm doing a random event, I don't need them to tell me thoroughly about how the NPC invented this magical object or how they closed a rift (though I'd appreciate it), but this is the main story, and they should handle information carefully in the main story. Anyway that's one of my main complains about the story here.

Sammybree: Totally agree about the Waiting Sorrow stuff you said at the end, I was MUCH more interested in her via books and conversations in SoTo. They just wrote her like a scrambled mess..

hardy83: I want to remind people that most of the lore placed in SotO paid off for the most part. It was all set up for a reason, mainly surrounding Waiting Sorrow and Janthir. Execution aside.

So I find it hard to believe that anything in this isn't breadcrumbs for future content, assuming they make it.

Mainly Dzlana, the Pale Tree, The Shadow army and more Shiverpeaks. For those let down that Menzies didn't suddenly show up, twirl his mustache and yell "Ah ha! Now I've got you meddling Tyrians! I choose you general! Destroy them!", we'll see more. :P

And I mainly want to applaud ANet, execution aside, for delivering what I really believe to be the most world building of any expansion in GW2. Not saying other ones were bad per say, but those Tyrian Alliance instances did more updates on inter-nation relations, region updates and future content hints than ANY of the other expansions. It covered basically the entire known planet save for the far West, but even that was hinted at for the two Mursaat who possibly survived fled.

I give this xpac a solid 7.5-8/10. I really disliked SotOs final updates cause while the meta was neat I felt the map and the story fell pretty flat and should've been its own expansion, though not Champions flat (I can't believe people compare the Absolution update to that mess). I think this did a far better job with the self-contained story, even if it's execution wasn't perfect as always.

As an aside, when talking to Dagda in the last instance saying who knows if that was really Mabon, I thought it'd be a hilarious twist if it was Menzies disguised as a Mursaat and have our hero, yet again, fooled into helping a god hiding behind a dead Mursaat. Probably not the case but just a funny what if.

Vidiri: Why does WP keep talking about Menzies? I understand he's the leader of the shadow army, but the army still exists with or without his influence all across the realm of torment. 99.99% of the playerbase isn't going to make this connection, so in my opinion, the idea that the writers are intending this is a bit of an insult to them. They're not "trying to hide it" the link just doesn't exist. I had a very different take from you, going purely off all the lore that has been provided through SotO and JW (with knowledge from the main story of gw1 prophesies).

This is my take on the titans and mists gate:

- The main titan has been feasting on magic from the portal for centuries to grow, like how Decima and Greer had fed on the bloodstone's magic.

- The main titan lured the White Mantle to the mists gate to open it, as Mabon's link to it had weakened in his death. Perhaps Mabon was still more powerful than Savos, so he needed the 3 to tip the scales in his favor to open it. (I seriously doubt it's some "they were humans" thing)

- The main titan convinced the 3 white mantle to relight the forge, which consequentially twisted them into the 3 titans. The 3 were starved and already going insane and falling to the voice's influence, so it's not a stretch that this could happen.

- The 4 then used the Mists Gate to create rifts across JW, spreading the titanspawn around in order to claim the land for themselves and spread their influence over it.

- We kill the 3 titans, so their souls return to the afterlife. They're tethered to the mists gate though, so like Mabon, they simply appear back there.

- We go into the foundry and disperse the 3 spirits before they are reforged into Titans.

And then my take on the events with the shadow creatures:

- Legavo appears to test Livia whenever her conviction waivers. This has been mentioned by her to be the case when we ask her about it in SotO. Although she wasn't specific regarding how it tests her, she did say she's confident in her unwavering conviction to the cause she's been using it for, and that this is the reason she hasn't met an ill fate like it's previous users. (I assume it's like, the scepter gets upset when not being used to dominate mists entities, so if the user hesitates or tries to use it for more than this, it rebels)

- When Livia gives pause about opening the barrier to Bava Nisos (since she's instead trying to convince her allies) the scepter summons local titanspawn to test her conviction (Isgarren says they're attracted to the scepter)

- When Livia goes through the barrier and waits for her allies before proceeding, the scepter summons local titanspawn to test her conviction

- When Livia, at the mists gate, shows weakness regarding the toll of the scepter, the scepter summons local shadowspawn from the gate to once again test her (while not explicitly mentioned, it's implied by the previous pattern)

KotMatroskin: I still do not understand how Tatyana, Judge and Ulrich got forged into Titans. Did they forge themselves? Who did the actual forging there?

SdoRyy: Look overall I really love when GW2 engages with past story and lore from GW1 and before, but ultimately they utterly failed this time - not because the lore they did give or connect wasn't interesting, but because the last patch just left a big big mess, with many things unexplained or straight up contradictory to what's been established before. I have so many questions that I feel like we will not get an answer to, and that is not good.

1) Who opened the mist gate? Saevus? Then how come he couldn't just leave on his own? Why make him this sad, pitiful being, all alone, all on his own, that made Mabon spare him if he could've just left the entire time? Speaking of, didn't Mabon ASSUME that the Titan could just operate the mist gate and "return to the mists"? If Mabon knew - or at least thought - that the mist gate would lead to where the Titans are coming from AND that the Titans themselves could operate it, how come the other Mursaat didn't know it was a mist gate to the Real of Torment that the Titans could just access any time? How come Mabon never told them? Surely despite all of it, Mabon wouldn't want his entire race to just be slaughtered, especially since we've since learned of some kinder Mursaat who didn't want all these sacrifices?

2) Did the three random White Mantle humans open it then, since Saevus seemingly couldn't? How come and entire race of spellcasters and almost-gods couldn't do something three mere, average humans could? And even then, EXPLAIN HOW. If NOT the titan, who did? Is this supposed to be some story setup for the next expansion? I ASSUME that it has do to with the 3 White Mantle sacrificing themselves in order to somehow tie themselves to the gate, but even then, you think the Mursaat would have thought of that no? With the Door of Komalie also requiring sacrifices and all?

3) Even if we accept that somehow mist gates are now/can now be tied to some entity that can control them, how the hell is Mabon one of these entities now, when his entire kin failed to operate it on any level? Who was tied to it before the 3 White Mantle came, only Mabon and Saevus? How does one get tied to these mist gates? And if Saevus was tied to it anyways, why couldn't he open it on his own (he didn't right?)? How come it is now closed when one of the tied beings still exists and lives? Couldn't he just open it? Or did we close it for good with the scepter? How come we couldn't just do that to begin with, instead of needing to go sever the connection between the 3 White Mantle and the gate?

4) Did this mist gate ALWAYS lead to the realm of torment? If so, what makes it different from the Door of Komalie? So the Mursaat spent years keeping the Door of Komalie closed with very demanding sacrifices through the soul batteries to prevent the Titans from coming, but then at the same time spent a huge amount of effort into getting and trying to operate a mist gate that... also leads to the realm of torment and functions as a gate for Titans to go through? Yuck. Why didn't the Titans just go through the mist gate in Bava Nisos to begin with, it feels like the Door of Komalie just seems... redundant? Just take the mist gates boys, it does the same and you're already at your prime destination, AND it can't be stopped by the Mursaat. Did the latter just bring the Trojan horse into their capital themselves? Makes the entire Prophecies story absolutely redundant.

4b) If none of the above is true, and e.g. the mist gate can just... change destinations, who made that happen? And how come the Mursaat couldn't? But then again, it still begs the question: If the Titans themselves or another entity siding with the Titans somehow has control over this mist gate, including where it goes, why was the Door of Komalie such an issue? Just operate the Mist Gate, it's been in the fricking Mursaat capitol for YEARS and voila, you're right where you want to be.

Then there's this entire Livia conflict that doesn't just FEEL incredibly artificial, it objectively IS. She had AND USED the scepter for literal centuries, she says so herself, and somehow no one has a problem with that, and obviously nothing bad happened, but now suddenly Livia having and using the scepter is this existential threat? Give me a break, seriously. And wasn't the scepter a legit option at the start of this expansion and the alliance just decided it was worth to try other avenues first? Didn't Isgarren himself literally say "yea use the scepter, it's fine, we have way more dangerous stuff anyways lols" and now suddenly Livia is a criminal that needs to be locked away and kept away from everyone because she's "dangerous"?`My god that is bad writing if I've ever seen it.

The ONLY way in my opinion they could SOMEHOW salvage all of this is essentially, as others have already said, to make Mabon not actually Mabon and someone like Menzies who pulled a big one on us to acquire the Scepter of Orr for whatever his evil plans end up being. But then again, that would mean the commander's naivety would finally pay off for once story-wise, and we all know Anet isn't gonna do that.

cobizig: I've watched a lot of your videos and have heard you time over time discuss successes and failures and your critique and passion on the game. It's appreciated. It is a great game, but its got its limits. I think the heartbeat of Guild Wars as a whole is slowing down not revving up. Each expansion appears to be an emergency defibrillator to keep fans connected, and its working. But throwing paint at a canvas doesn't make it better. Anet might be too nearsighted but they can't be Monet.

IMO Anet is putting out what feels like one part of a larger chapter and pretending it reads like a whole book, even when the pacing, depth, and payoff aren’t there. They’re not trying to fool us maliciously..it’s just the reality of a live game trying to keep the lights on and the fans somewhat satisfied. If they embraced the "episodic" model honestly and transparently..like a serial story that builds over time, with smaller stakes per beat..it could work. But right now, they’re selling fragments as wholes, and it’s starting to show.

Emotional arcs don’t get time to land, because we're forced to jump from conflict to climax too quickly.

A chapter of a book without enough pages to read..

It feels like you're playing a demo for a deeper story that never fully lands..

They try to please story fans, meta event fans, PvE grinders, and roleplayers all at once in a compressed package. Exhausting.

They overpack the story and underdeliver the time to experience it. It's like trying to cram a whole season of TV into a short film. It can look good, sound epic, and have a great idea..but it doesn't stick because the pacing is too rushed and the gameplay loop isn’t meaty enough to compensate.

Anet can still make this work within the small-expansion model. They just need to stop pretending these are full expansions and instead lean into what they're actually doing: episodic storytelling.

Stop marketing these like traditional expansions. Instead..

Call them what they are: Chapters or Acts in a longer saga.

If we know we’re getting a first act, we’ll judge it on setup—not on its lack of conclusion.

Long story short.. hah..

How they could fix it.. Structure and label content like an episodic series, Embed story and growth into open world and side content, Focus on fewer characters (more deeply), Make masteries meaningful (not just mechanical) Stagger updates for ongoing engagement.

Be transparent and stop pretending each "expansion" is a full epic.

I've played GW1 since launch, GW2 beta and continue playing this with my wife and kids. We enjoy it but we can't keep the pace and it loses interest over time. Pacing is key with this game and it can always be enjoyed. I don't think its a horrible game. Just trying too hard to be something it's not. Keeping up with the Jones's.

shogenx: the fact we havnt heard anything from CoJo this entire time after he returned to anet tells me they brought him back on to work on GW3

trippingbears1016: thoroughly relieved that my comment didn't go through intense interrogation. Idk if it could hold any real water!

raquetdude: So we went to Janthir but do we know anything more about the Eye of Janthir?

Think there needed to be a shadow army General of sorts in the final story just as the Hero was about to jump through the portal.

Could have had the Hero fight them off alone just as Mabon is trying to close the portal.

xuzhang9580: The lack of important discussions ingame is also what annoys me this patch. For example the Livia and scepter of Orr thing, in Season3 Livia literally told us about it, to quote her dialogue:"I've extended my life using an artifact known as the Scepter of Orr", so everyone in the heart chamber instance (saved Poised Arrow) should know that she was giving up her immortality by giving up the scepter! But there was barely any conversation about it and I don't understand why. I really would understand if Livia retaliates a bit more, and if Anet want drama and conflicts, wouldn't this be better than what we get with Livia and Anise?

I would add the fact Mabon locked himself inside the realm of torment into this list too, because I was so confused when I saw him closing the gate from within, but no character remarked on it. Perhaps this was setting up for Menzies to take the scepter, but still shouldn't someone comment on the fact?

There's also dropped side stories, like the keystone which was said to be in Bava Nisos. Since the lore books that revealed it weren't mainline story, I was expecting the meta of Bava Nisos to talk about it, but we all know how the meta goes. We saw Lextalion the Merciless whose big attack is called keystone vengeance, so persumably it's connected to the keystone, but no hint as to where the keystone goes. I'm not saying they should do a keystone story in the middle of this complex arc, but shouldn't there be a book or some dialogue about it, something concrete that tells us "hey we know this story is here, we'll deal with it later", like maybe a surviving mursaat took it away or the titan consumed it? Maybe the information is on the map and I missed it, but I really didn't see anything about it.

And there's more details, like why does Decima call Greer her brother and Ura their leader? Why is Ura more powerful than the other two? I wouldn't go too far as to say the titan-white mantle reveal wasn't planned, but I feel like they didn't plan this part that well.

ThatOtherGuyOI: With JW having clarified in earlier content that there are multiple eyes of janthir it would seem that the eye we saw in the boss-battle with eparch in SOTO was mabon observing us from the mist since he comments, in the foundry of failed creations, that he 'had his way' of watching/knowing of our sucess. that feels a bit anticlimactic... but i suppose fitting that it is a sly reference to an easter egg from the previous expansion. anyone else feel like that is that SOTO mystery is concluded?

angels2online: Livia has the same immortality logic as Gollum.

xuzhang9580: As much as I really like the idea of Menzies pulling strings and manipulating the white mantles into opening the mist gate, I feel like it would make the story even worse in a subtle way if it's true. If Saevus wasn't the one whispering to the three mantles, then what part did Saevus play in the story? It wasn't responsible for the opening of the mist gate, it didn't create the three titans (in theory Menzies did that as well), it wasn't responsible for the mistburn (the gate itself was leaking that as we learnt back in Mistburn Barren), the only thing relevent to it was that the gate was anchored to it, which is a passive thing. So in this theory, we have this titan who stayed in Tyria, and what did it do in the 200 years after Mabon left it be? ...Nothing. It just became one with Bava Nisos and stayed passive.

If we take the Menzies theory, deleting Saevus from the story would've been perfectly fine: the gate would've stayed anchored because of the three white mantles, the titan crisis in base JW would've still existed, and the storyline could've played out literally the same (except the Mabon bit, but if Saevus didn't open the gate and cause the titan crisis, what interesting plot do we have about Mabon? He just showed mercy to a titan, and there would've been no fault in this since the titan did nothing anyway).

So as much as I want to believe the Menzies theory and I think it's a brilliant idea to have the commander say something that later we learn isn't true (the commander said twice that it was Saevus manipulating the white mantles), I really don't believe Anet will write a story like this. That's not to say the Menzies connection doesn't exist; I believe Anet put in shadow creatures expecting us to make that connection, I just don't think the connection runs that deep. Menzies is probably involved in the foundry in some ways, and maybe he helped with creating the titans, but did I think he told the white mantles to open the mist gate? No.

mateodavidgutierrezgonzale6556: Really felt like Poky in this expansion was like Braham but good

deanlars8161: For me this is 'The Elder Dragons Don't Matter' v2 'Guild Wars 2 Doesn't Matter' shame, I was really looking foward to this patch

Jun 18 2025

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